Would you say you have a certain fame in the graffiti world?

I’m one of the older heads that put their time in. I may not have done it on the same level that other people did it, but when I started, my entrance to graffiti bombing was after the double-fenced yards with dogs in them. Vandal Squad was up on everybody. I probably made more noise after the fact as things started happening. So, I’m not like a part of this crew, or I’m not the mural king, or I’m not a legend. I did damage. I bombed, and heads will give me that credit.

Did you ever feel bad about the property you damaged?

No, but in a weird way. I didn’t bomb monuments or tag churches. I didn’t need that as a paint spot. I didn’t need to be that guy and be there. I do feel bad a little bit, yes, because now I pay taxes, and I have this building. Back then you didn’t realize what you could lose in the future. That’s the difference between a vandal’s mentality and getting-up from my age or somebody like FUTURA—it wasn’t really malicious. I paint over graffiti the same day when my building gets bombed outside. Chances are you’re not going to hit it again if I go over somebody that quickly. Heads know that if they hit this building, they’ll get painted over the same day. It’s a class-A buff spot.

Was there a catalyst that made you stop painting trains in ’87?

It was harder and harder to do. There wasn’t necessarily a catalyst; it was just the time. It was me, SHAKER, ZEPHYR, probably LUST. It was one of those little impulse things. We were debating whether to do it. Then we said fuck it. ZEPHYR would tell us how he used to make a night of bombing and used to bring kegs and poker tables.

What do you think makes it art?

Everything makes it art from composition to color to design. You can attribute so many things to it and take so many things from it. There’s no dispute that it’s an art form. It got mislabeled in its infancy as a vandalistic act. The labeling is skewed, and it’s matured into something more than a vandalistic act. It blossomed well beyond that. When I was painting trains and FUTURA was in galleries, back then critics were saying graffiti wouldn’t last and that it was a trend.

Why did you parlay your graffiti into the art world?

I would go to the galleries for shows and have just come from doing a lay-up that day. I realized that I could paint on a canvas and it could still be cool. It was like a black book, but instead, doing it on a canvas. I was mixing everything I had—a few tubes of paint, some markers, a can. Again, it was just self-expression. It became how I do my graf. Everybody does it differently. I was a product of my environment. My entrance into the scene of graf was when there was a transition between trains and galleries—the acceptance of CRASH, FUTURA, and ZEPHYR. All those guys were making it acceptable. I’m blessed in that sense because I took notice and few people did. It meant something to us. So many people couldn’t make that transition between graffiti and the real world.